Carol Platt Liebau: Unity in Adversity

Monday, July 03, 2006

Unity in Adversity

It's an ill, ill wind that blows no one any good. As John Podhoretz pointed out, between the New York Times' publishing perfidy and the Hamden decision, the last several days may turn out to be seminal moments in reuniting a conservative and Republican coalition that was fraying dangerously over everything from runaway spending to illegal immigration.

Indeed, the much-heralded "rebuke" of five justices to President Bush will be long forgotten by the autumn, when Democratic legislators will face an interesting choice as elections loom: Sign on to legislation providing President Bush with everything he wants in terms of military commissions (and thereby implicitly admit that his view does not, in fact, conflict with American principles and law); or else be tarred as fellow travelers with the justices who believe that men like Osama bin Laden and Mohammed Atta are explicitly entitled to the protections of the Geneva Conventions.


Blogger Cliff said...

Like I said on a previous thread, those who are laughing now will be pulling their hair out later, when they see the results of their lame attempts to take down this president and the war on terror. Their heads will be spinning so fast, it would be fun to give them some Pea Soup,for that special,
"Linda Blair" effect! It will be fun to watch.

1:07 PM  
Blogger wrabkin said...

That's right, let's run this election on clean American values: Either you support torture and indefinite imprisonment without charge, or you're a traitor.

You must be so proud to be a Republican these days.

1:59 PM  
Blogger The Flomblog said...

Ok, I'm trying to just read and stay quiet - But I can't hold it in any more

1. Torture - We made them stay up all night? We made them wear panties on their heads? How many did we dismember? How many rape rooms did we run. How many people did we gas? Oh yes the incidents at the two infamous prisons. Perhaps a person died. Check with Berg's parents. Check with the families of the two unfortunate soldiers that just were dismembered.

OK perhaps as many as 20 americans MIGHT have performed unlawful acts - for which they are being tried. Lets do a little math - Conservatiely 200,000 troops have been involved. 20 might have broken the UCMJ's. that is 1 in 10,000 again conservatively. And they will be punished if they are guilty.

Compare that to the enemies Search and rescue techniques - Hanging people from a bridge. Shooting into a river when there was a possibly that an airplane had gone down. They are animals -- but we continue to try and treat them fairly.

I compare our troops against the men and women that I served with in Vietnam - I proudly say that they are better trained, better equipped, have better morale and are better led than we were. We are furtunate to hvae these fine young men and women in our armed forces. G-d bless them all!

Mr. Wrabkin and crowd - You and your ilk treated us like crap when we came home. You and your ilk spit on us, called us names and caused a deepset anger that will only heal with our death.

Yes, I consider you a traitor, and unlike you, I would gladly say that to your face. I do not hide behind a pseudonym. My blog is out there as is my name and email address.

You sir are a coward.

Carol - please forgive the anger.

5:35 PM  
Blogger Dittohead said...

Who needs 4th of July fireworks with the writings of John Podhoretz, Carol and Flomblog?

Holy Moses!

7:49 PM  
Blogger wrabkin said...

Mr. Flombog:

I'm really sorry someone spit on you when you came home, even though there isn't a single documented case of this happening. I'm sure you believe it happened, and if that makes you feel better about yourself, then God bless you. And if you choose to cherish your anger for more than 30 years, then I'm truly sorry for you. What a sad, pathetic life. If you feel compelled to call me a traitor to make yourself feel better, then be my guest. The fact that you are pathetic, however, does not alter the more important fact that this is not a tyranny, and those who resist the complete takeover of our political system by the executive branch are the real patriots.

I was probably 13 when you came home, however, and didn't spit on anyone, not even the sidewalk, being very well raised. Maybe someone did, although there is not a single documented case of this happening. If so, they were very rude. If it was anyone I knew, I would apologize for them. Since it was not -- to my knowlededge -- that seems a little presumptuous. But I do disapprove. Perhaps that will help you in your decades-long healing process.

I don't know what call you have to call me a coward. I'm not the one begging the government to take away my civil rights so that the scary brown people won't get me. I'd rather have less "protection" and take my chances with more freedom. To my mind, that's not cowardice, that's patriotism. Oh, and I don't wallow in something that happened to me a third of a century ago. I try to face the present facts. I don't call that cowardice, either. Do you really?

And no matter how poorly you were treated, that hardly excuses torture. And if you think that panties on the head are the extent of it, you might want to read about the secret prisons. We weren't running jets all over the world to put panties on people's head.

As for rape rooms (what's wrong -- have the Kuwaiti incubators finally been proved a myth even to you?), I'm sorry, but I don't think that "we don't torture as many people as that other guy" is really a shining motto for this country. We used to stand for something. Now we're not as bad as Saddam Hussein. Oh, boy, I'm so proud. What a great man that Bush is.

Oh, and I don't use a pseudonym. This is my name -- well, my first initial and my last name, same as my e-mail address. (Did your mother really name you flomblog? No wonder you're so angry.) I don't have a blog. I don't have an ilk, either.

8:57 PM  
Blogger Mr. Twister said...

The United States of America was the primary driver of the Geneva accords, because America used to be against torture. Standing four-square against torture and for the dignity of each individual used to be an American value. That is the choice--does the United State of America stand for human rights and human dignity or do we devolve to the level of the terrorists?

Sadly, on Independence Day we must add The Flomblog into the roster of people who think the torture is an American value.

As a personal aside to The Flomblog, I didn't spit on you when you got home. I have been exceedingly clear in posts to you and others that I am grateful for and honor your service to our country. I do find it reprehensible, however, that you hide behind your military service to defend torture and to call dissent treasonous. You dishonor your uniform by using it to promote torture and fascism.

7:24 AM  
Blogger Greg said...

Wrabkin says:

"... I'm really sorry someone spit on you when you came home, even though there isn't a single documented case of this happening. I'm sure you believe it happened, and if that makes you feel better about yourself, then God bless you. And if you choose to cherish your anger for more than 30 years, then I'm truly sorry for you. What a sad, pathetic life. ..."

So, let me get this straight:

1. I'm sorry you were spit on
2. But you really weren't
3. I'm sure you believe you were, though
4. You are bitter, sad, and pathetic

I'd say, Wrabkin, you just SPIT on Flomblog.

Happy Independence Day for those who love and appreciate America!

For those on the left, I hope you can endure this day of knuckle-dragging, bone-headed, ignorant nationalism.

9:52 AM  
Blogger Greg said...

Oh, and by the way, Wrabkin:

"... does not alter the more important fact that this is not a tyranny, ..."

Thanks for finally admitting this. Can we now expect you to drop this ridiculous liberal talking point in future threads?

10:18 AM  
Blogger Dittohead said...

Flomblog should just grow up. 30 plus years of whining. Clearly he went off the dead end over wrabkin simply saying he, as the vast majority of Americans do not condone torture and Bush's endless abuse of power.

11:54 AM  
Blogger eLarson said...

7 terrorists killed, none detained. No coalition forces lost.

They were saved from certain weight gain at GTMO.

2:18 PM  
Blogger Dittohead said...

Sounds like eLarson just had another orgasim.

3:42 PM  
Blogger Duke-Stir said...

"Sounds like eLarson just had another orgasm."

I think he and Pete are on the phone reading the story to each other. Thankfully, we only caught larson's end of the "conversation," as I shudder to think of Pete's epithet-laced orgasm yell.

10:24 PM  
Blogger Greg said...

Sure killed your mood, though. Didn't it, Ditto & Duke?


"They were saved from certain weight gain at GTMO. "

Well said!

6:57 AM  
Blogger eLarson said...

Oh, ditto... you make funny. For you, I guess, that's funny. Nice try, though.

Congratulations to our forces in the field on a job well done.

7:23 AM  
Blogger Pete said...

Thanks for your service, Flomblog. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with your anger over mistreatment by the left when you returned home. It is the left who lost the war that you and your fellow soldiers and sailors won! I, and many others, are still mad at the traitor who giggled and sat on the anti-aircraft gun of the enemy. I'm still mad at the ego-maniac who betrayed his comrades by faking wounds and lying to Congress! Shoot me!

Since the left is still full of detractors, it is not surprising that they know nothing of the treatment you recieved, and deny reality. Others have verified that they got the same treatment. Now, the 'Blame America first' crowd only finds 'documented cases' of things they want to exploit or lie about - never what happened to a real person.

Our military still has a greater number of heros (numbering around 99.99% in my humble opinion) than we can find on the left. Thank God they will still serve and defend our nation's principles, despite the venom and ridicule of the left.

8:34 AM  
Blogger wrabkin said...


Go see The Fog of War. It is a 90-minute interview with Robert McNamara, one of the chief architects of the Vietnam war. Now in his declining years, he admits -- on film, with no edits -- that he and everyone in the Johnson administration knew that the Vietnam war was unwinnable in 1967, but they wouldn't admit it for fear of looking weak. 1967. How many brave men and boys died in the next few years for a war the leaders knew they could never win?

And yet, you continue to believe the fantasy that the "left" caused us to lose.

As they say in the Bible, now that you are a man, it's time to put away childish things.

8:55 AM  
Blogger eLarson said...

Did McNamara mention why he felt the war was unwinnable?

10:37 AM  
Blogger Pete said...

McNamera has been in his 'fading years' for decades! IF he thought the war was unwinable, he should have pulled up his bootstraps like a man and pulled us out! But he did not! And neither did anyone else.

Facts are, that our men were winning - until the traitors, the MSM and the leftist politicians started turning public opinion with the barage of pictures showing American deaths and other tragedies. Like the strategy you use today to turn opinion.

If the left didn't lose the war, can you tell me why the North Viet General said that Kerry was one of their best friends? Why is Kerry's pic in a place of honor in their war museum? Why they said they realized they just had to lay back and wait for the American opinion to change so they could take over? How could they be sure? They in the North realized they were going to win - they saw the American will deteriorating - thanks to the left!

'Peace at any price' simply means more Americans will die, needlessly!

11:15 AM  
Blogger eLarson said...

It would seem, for instance, that Cronkite told an outright lie that we had lost as a result of the Tet Offensive. (Really? We kicked their butts all over South Vietnam.)

What I was wondering if the "Well if we've lost Cronkite, we've lost the nation" sentiment had crept into McNamara's thinking.

12:21 PM  
Blogger wrabkin said...

Yes, Pete, exactly -- McNamara should have pulled us out (or at least advised Johnson to do so). That's exactly what McNamara says now. (You really should see this film -- it is chilling.) He did not -- as he explains -- for explicitly political reasons -- the administration was afraid that they'd be accused of being soft on Communism. Of course it's reprehensible, but it's a fact.

And he does talk about why it was unwinnable -- because we were not fighting the war we said we were. We claimed to be fighting against a Communist takeover of a nation, while those we were fighting against were fighting a civil war to countrol their own destiny, and they would never give up until we killed every last man, woman, and child there.

Did the North see the American will deteriorating? Maybe -- but the point is, their will would NEVER deteriorate, because we were foreign invaders and they were fighting for their homeland. If it were up to you, we'd still be there killing people and getting killed -- all to prove that you and the war planners weren't wrong and that those who sacrificed didn't do so in vain. Of course our illegal bombing campaign in Cambodia had already brought down that government and allowed the murderous Khmer Rouge to take over and slaughter millions; if we'd kept up our noble crusade, maybe we could have brought down Laos and Thailand, too.

Instead, Viet Nam is now a US trading partner, and our troops are free to be killed in a pointless war halfway across the world from there.

2:25 PM  

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